Today, we have Editor-in-Chief Shikha Dalmia in conversation with two of the foremost thinkers of our time, Frank Fukuyama, an American political theorist and public intellectual best known for The End of History and the Last Man who is now a senior fellow at Stanford University’s Freeman Spogli Institute, where his work focuses on political order, governance, and democratic backsliding. And Tyler Cowen, an economist, author, and public intellectual who has written books on innovation, talent and cultural change. A professor at George Mason University and director of the Mercatus Center, he writes the highly influential blog Marginal Revolution and hosts the long-running podcast Conversations with Tyler.

One reason for the populist revolt in America is the notion of the “deep state”—that an unaccountable bureaucracy is secretly ruling the country. Frank and Tyler come from very different intellectual traditions. Frank, a centrist, is a student of Max Weber and Tyler is a limited government libertarian. Yet they have both argued that liberal states in complex modern societies need a functional bureaucracy— aka state capacity—to deliver public goods and solve collective action problems. But they also have a ton of disagreements, especially on just how broken American governance is—and they duke it out in a spirited discussion.

We hope you enjoy.

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Episode ID: 1000746706225

GUID: substack:post:185663746

Release Date: 26/01/2026, 20:36:39